Air Date: 10.2.2015

To listen to the audio file click here.

Speaker 1: Love Talk Radio.

Connie Going: Hi, and welcome to Adoption Focus. My name is Connie Going, and I’m an adoptive mother, and an adoptive consultant to Adoption Associates.

Adoption Associates is an amazing adoption agency located in Michigan. They have offices in Jenison, Farmington Hills, Lansing, and northeastern Michigan. They have been an adoption agency since 1990, and they specialize in domestic and international adoption. During that time, they have done well over 5,000 adoptive placements. That, in itself, is exciting and amazing. They are very, very supportive to birth mothers and adoptive families along the way. They are a Christian organization, although they work with families of all faiths. They are committed to each child and parent, and they want to walk each family through the process on their adoption journey, supporting them the entire way.

Today, we are very excited to have with us Kim Noeth, and we are waiting for her to call in, but let me tell you a little bit about Kim. Kim is a birth mother. She’s also the founder of Birth Moms Today, and in her very own words, she says, “As a birth mother myself, I support women throughout their adoption experience. Having been there before, I strive to make it my personal mission to ensure that women today who are considering adoption will receive support, encouragement, and the upmost and accurate information available to them by educating and empowering them through the process.

So, we are honored and excited to have Kim with us today. Kim, are you on the line?

Kim Noeth: I am, Connie. How are you?

Connie Going: I am wonderful. Now, tell us where you’re located. What area?

Kim Noeth: I’m in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where we’re having some blustery cold weather, today.

Connie Going: Are you really? I know there’s a storm heading up the eastern coast. I’m not sure what that’s going to bring there. We know that Adoption Associates is located in Michigan, and I’m in sunny south Florida, which today, is a little overcast, but about 78 degrees.

Kim Noeth: Very nice.

Connie Going: Well, it’s nice, but no fall colors like you guys get. So, I definitely [inaudible 00:02:29].

For those of you who are listening, I told a little bit about just who you were, Kim, and that you’re a birth mom and you’re the founder of Birth Moms Today, but tell us a little bit about your adoption journey.

Kim Noeth: Sure. My journey in adoption started when I was about 15 years old. I was pregnant back in the time where it really wasn’t popular to be pregnant, and I was probably the only one in my school that was pregnant. I remember at the time being really scared and not sure what to do, and I didn’t want to tell my mom or my family, and I remember the day when the doctor called, and he told my mom for me.

Connie Going: Wow.

Kim Noeth: So, she found out the news and she came to me and we talked about it. My plan at the time was I was going to get married at 15, and we were going to raise this child. Now, I really didn’t have any actual plan other than that. So, that was the plan we went forward with. Then, over time, the relationship fell apart. As a matter of fact, the day we were supposed to be married, I remember receiving a phone call from the birth father that he was in jail that day.

So, I was very relieved that I had completely severed that relationship before we got to that point, but now, here, I really didn’t know what I was going to do.

Connie Going: At 15, that has to be just an incredible time to go through that. How were your family during that time? I imagine it was a shock.

Kim Noeth: Sure. My dad was not ever very involved, but my mother took it really hard. She looked at it from the perspective of having to be responsible to raise another child, and we had had some issues in our family that she just really was not looking forward to having to protect and worry about another child in the family. So, she was really heavy about encouraging me to go in a home for unwed mothers. At that time, I was really against that. I felt like she was just trying to hide me and the situation in the last place that I wanted to go, but then one day, a series of events happened and I remember coming home and my mom was upstairs and my dad was in the house. He let me know that my mom was really upset. I went upstairs and tried to console her, and she was actually having a nervous breakdown.

So, here I was at 15, not knowing how to deal with that. My dad had left and I didn’t know what to do, and in it I remember promising her that I would go to this home for unwed mothers. That calmed her down enough after a while, and that was probably the first conscious choice that I made, that I was going to go that route. So, we looked into that, and at the time, there was a home run by a Catholic charity, I believe, and it was also a church in the local town near us, and we went down there and learned a little bit about it, and I reluctantly went there. It was there that I met with a caseworker. I hated her, at first. I hated her because she confronted me with reality. She showed me that, at 15, I didn’t have a job. I didn’t have a place to raise a baby. How was I really going to do this?

So, I went in to her, week after week, always frustrated. Going into the process, I remember feeling like adoption was really selfish, like it was a choice that … It was a cop-out because I couldn’t take care of kids, so I would just choose adoption. Much to my surprise, I learned so much that I was the one being selfish because I didn’t want to go through the pain of losing a child, but at the same time, I was about to raise a child in an environment that would not have been conducive for him to have a good future.

Connie Going: So, Kim, was this in the ’60s or the ’70s?

Kim Noeth: Oh, this was in the ’80s.

Connie Going: In the ’80s? Okay.

Kim Noeth: You had me a little more outdated. This is in the late ’80s.

Connie Going: [inaudible 00:06:34] Mine … Yeah. You and I are close, I think, without telling our ages. That would’ve been … Yeah, the ’80s.

Kim Noeth: Yeah, this was the late ’80s.

Connie Going: Well, you know, things have changed since then, but even into the ’80s, that’s not that long ago, when you think about it.

Kim Noeth: No, but adoptions were mainly closed then. There was no such thing, at least not to my knowledge, of an open adoption at that time.

Connie Going: Correct. I don’t even think the word existed.

Kim Noeth: No. I don’t either. So, at that time, when I first consciously chose adoption, what they would have me do is look at these profiles, and these profiles were so different than what we have today. They were basically maybe a piece of paper, one-sided, that had a bunch of stuff typed out on it that was just very general about a family. It would just basically tell me the type of business the father was in, very little bit about themselves. You know, the mother was a teacher, things like that. I had maybe three or four of those to look at.

Connie Going: But no pictures.

Kim Noeth: And there was no videos, no pictures, no possibilities of me asking questions or finding out more. It was more like, “Here’s your three choices. Pick the best one, and we’ll go from there.”

Connie Going: Wow.

Kim Noeth: So, at this time, being 15, I was also very small, and the baby inside of me they felt wasn’t growing enough. So, right around maybe the 38th, 37th week of pregnancy, I remember I had just turned 16, and it was right after that they said I was going to have to have a C-section. So, they scheduled me for a Cesarean, and I went in for that, and that turned out to be a blessing in disguise. First of all, they would not put me in the maternity ward because, at that time, they were very careful about not having you get upset if you saw a baby and maybe changing the mind, or … So, they put me off in a wing separate. Because of the Cesarean, I was able to stay in the hospital for six days, so that was six days that I was able to bond with my child that I would not have been had they not chosen that route.

So, I had a healthy baby boy. He was born. Like I said, for the first six days, I fed him and I held him, and I remember the last day in the hospital, I had picked out a special outfit to put on him. It was this cute little blue outfit and a special blanket, and I dressed him in it. I can still remember the nurses came in and they were like, “Oh my God. We’re so happy you decided to keep your baby.”

Connie Going: Oh.

Kim Noeth: I remember I just broke down and I cried and I thought, “No. I can’t keep him, but I just want him to go knowing that he was loved in this special outfit.”

So, they were apologetic and that was that, and then a few hours later, I remember a social worker came. Because she was my last, I guess, point of contact with the baby, my heart was endeared to her immediately. She came in and she let me know that she was going to be taking the baby somewhere until he was placed with his family. I remember she came in and she told me, “You’re very courageous.” She said, “You’re a trooper.” And I thought, “Boy, I feel like everything but that right now.” She took my son, and I still remember the double doors closing in the hospital, an image that even today, even after being reunited, I still remember that feeling as those doors closed, knowing that I may never see him again.

So, that was pretty traumatic at that time of my life. Then, I had to go back into reality now. You know, I had this baby, and I remember distinctively going back to the home and getting my stuff, and then going back to my own home. I thought, “Wow. How am I ever going to do this?”

So, time went on and everybody would say, “Oh, you’ll feel better after time.” And it did take a really long time. I had attended a few support groups, but it’s mostly a private healing that nobody can understand until they themselves go through it. It’s not like you actually lost a child through death, that you can fully grieve. You’ve just lost a child. They’re no longer with you, and it just kinds of hangs open, that wound, probably forever for most people.

Connie Going: Oh, I would agree. How did you even … You went back to school, and it was just things were the way they were before you were pregnant?

Kim Noeth: Well, at that time, I decided I was going to go for a GED. My parents had moved to a different state. So, I got a full-time job and began to study and work on that. Then, at that point in my life, things started to pick up a little bit. I got older and was able to start working and rebuilding my life. My husband, at that time, and we got married, and I remember thinking, “I want to do everything right now.” I just felt like I had done such a terrible experience and caused such grief for myself and for my child that now, I was going to do everything perfectly.

So, we got involved in a church and we had a large family. I remember going into my marriage knowing that the person I married had to know that I had had a child because my hope was that, one day, despite the odds, I would be able to be reunited with my son. Before I married, that was a big stipulation.

Then, growing up, I always shared the truth with my children. I felt it was really important because hopefully, they would meet their brother one day, but it was also an important story to realize that that pregnancy is a real possibility in a situation like that. So, everybody grew up knowing that they had a brother out there.

Connie Going: Life goes on. You’re a mom.

Kim Noeth: Now, at this point, I have children. I’m a stay at home mom. I’m raising my children, and my marriage started to fall apart. I went in for counseling for about five years of my marriage. Probably at the very ending when I realized that, somehow someway, I was going to have to leave this marriage and take care of all these children myself, and that was a really scaring timing. I remember I received a phone call. Right about this time, I received this phone call. It sounded like somebody, maybe a bill collector because they asked for me by my maiden name. They said, “Hi. Can I speak to Kim [Millers 00:13:14]?” I thought, “Boy, I haven’t heard that name in a while.”

I didn’t answer the first call. It went to an answering machine. Then, the next day when they called back, I had already googled the phone number and saw that it was probably a collection agency, so I said, “I’m sorry, but no one lives here by that name.” Then the lady says, “Wait a second. Before you hang up, please.” And I said, “Yes?” And she goes, “Are you Kim Millers? Did you have a son with blonde hair and blue eyes who you dressed in a really cute little blue outfit before you gave him up for adoption?”

And I dropped the phone. I mean, I couldn’t believe it. I had waited for this call my whole life, and here, a lot of milestones had happened up to that point where I knew my child had turned 18. So, I was sure I would hear something anytime. I remember calling into the agency and they said, “Oh, I’m so sorry. There was a fire. All of your files were lost, but we do have certain information, but the law is that they have to come looking for you.” So, I had been on an online registry. I put my name in two online registries, and it just had basic information like the date of birth. I did include the situation with the outfit I placed him in, and just very limited info. Actually, no, I did not include the information with the outfit. They knew about that from the adoption records.

Connie Going: Wow.

Kim Noeth: So, here I’ve been in those two places. So, really, I did not have much media attention or anything off the situation. I remember when my child did turn 18, I had seen this attorney on Oprah, and the conversation on Oprah was about finding your loved ones. There was a particular person on the show that said that she was really well at connecting adoptees. I contacted her right away and she sent me a list of people that had been born on that day in New York, I guess their drivers records. So, I had about maybe 180 names. I had names that were clearly different nationalities, but I had no idea who had adopted my son.

I sent letters out to all 180 of them. On the top of the letter, I just put, “Were you adopted on this day?” Then I said, “I’m looking for you. Here’s my email address. Contact me.” I was really hopeful, but I heard back nothing. Here, like I said, after the 18th birthday, I really didn’t know if I would hear anything. 21st birthday goes by. Still nothing. Here, now, when I think he was about 22 at the time, I received this call. What it was, was a call from a search Adoption Angel. She did in fact work for a collection agency, which was how she was able to, on the side, find people and connect them. Here, she had found my number. She had seen the night before, at 2 AM in the morning from California, a young man got online, and he typed in very limited information about his birthdate and what he knew. Within hours, we were matched. It took him having to go online to do that, but within hours, we were matched.

Here, she’s telling me this, and you’re afraid to be hopeful because you hear so many stories about reunions that you just want them to be, and they’re not always the right ones.

Connie Going: Right.

Kim Noeth: Here we had a name. For the first time in all these years, I had a name for my child. I can remember the day with my children. We were on the computer. Now, we had a computer that we could look things up, and we were so excited. We were typing in his name, trying to find him on Facebook, trying to find anything we could out about him.

At that point, then, we were able to speak by phone. This was like, “Wow.” So, we get on the phone together, and we’re both really hopeful, but we’re cautious. We start talking and immediately … I mean, the first thing is, “I’m sorry.”

Connie Going: Thank you so much.

Kim Noeth: I don’t think that a single birth mother wants to start the conversation without saying, “I’m so sorry,” because that’s something on hold for so many years, just hoping that you’ll be forgiven for your choice or that your child will at least be able to understand the why behind it.

Connie Going: Right.

Kim Noeth: I could not have been gifted with a more understanding child. My son was so gracious from the beginning of understanding and just being thankful that he was given life, and that I made a better choice for him so that he wasn’t stuck in the poverty situation just because. So, here we got to know each other, but we weren’t yet fully sure. I remember I had one last piece of information that I had been holding back that I really didn’t want to share until I knew because it was the only thing I had, and without it … If somebody had said something that wouldn’t … I wouldn’t know because I wouldn’t be sure if they were just telling me that or not.

What that was, was when I was 15, I had written my son a letter. I had been told that that letter would be given to him, but I never knew if it would be. Back then, we didn’t have photocopier, so I hand writ a copy of it for myself, and on one evening when my son and I were speaking, I said there is one way that I’ll know if you’re my son and that’s that I wrote you this letter. I started to type the first line, and he returned it with the second. It was very, very overwhelming, and we both cried and we knew that this was definite. From that point on, there was no more questions. There was just this full ability now to be able to get to know each other.

He was in California. I remember taking a plane by myself for the first time, going over to California, and getting to meet him. That was such an incredible experience. Here we talked for a few weeks, maybe three or four weeks, but to actually look at him and see him was just such an exciting possibility.

Connie Going: Kim-

Kim Noeth: When I got off the-

Connie Going: Kim, I have to tell you. Thank you so much because this is just … I know it’s emotional, but it is just so riveting and so heartfelt, and how you’re sharing this. When you first saw him, what was your first thought?

Kim Noeth: That finally my soul had come back to its beginning.

Connie Going: I can only imagine.

Kim Noeth: I looked in the eyes of the baby that I had held until he was six days old, and not knowing how we could ever possibly be reunited again, and then to see that actually happen, that was totally amazing.

Connie Going: It had to have been. It was as if my soul had found its missing piece.

Kim Noeth: Yeah. Yeah. Even today, here we’ve been reunited for several years now, and there’s still all that feeling and emotion involved.

Connie Going: So, you guys … obviously you’ve been reunited. Is he still … I mean, the family that raised him, his adoptive family, are they supportive?

Kim Noeth: Well, here’s how that went. When we first met each other, I remember asking all the general questions that you would ask. “Are you married? Tell me everything about yourself.” I remember there was a hesitation. I didn’t know what it was and I couldn’t put my finger on it, but I just felt there was something that he was concerned about or holding back, or something. It took a little while to come through, but then I realized that my son was gay. I remember the night that I went to him and said, “I just want you to know that I know that you’re gay and I’m okay with that. That’s your sexual orientation. That doesn’t diminish my love for you in any way.” Here, he had been very concerned about if I’d be able to accept that because that had been an issue for him growing up, and here he’d finally connected and there was still that question, “How is she going to feel about that?”

That really cleared the air for us, just being able to right up front acknowledge that, and then I went to California and I met him and … it would be his fiance at the time. I met two of the greatest people. They couldn’t complement each other anymore than they do. They’re one of the happiest couples I know. So, here, we went to have a meal for the first time. As we were sitting in the restaurant, I remember his partner saying to me, “Oh, my God. You hold your cup of coffee the same way that he does.” There was just so many different things about us that, even though I hadn’t raised him, somehow that mannerism and those characteristics were present in him as if I did, and that was incredible to see.

Connie Going: Genetics are amazing, amazing things.

Kim Noeth: Absolutely.

Connie Going: We hope that in educating adoptive families that they understand why having an open adoption and knowing your birth mom is so important, if that’s what the birth mom wants because truly, I’ve seen reunifications where a birth mom and her daughter are wearing rings on the same finger, have the same amount of piercings in their ear, have put tattoos in the same place of the same thing. So, some things are so much bigger than we can understand.

Kim Noeth: Absolutely. The idea of being able to look in the eyes of where you come from, when everybody around you … they just don’t look like you, or there’s just something that isn’t quite fully whole, to actually look in the eyes of another person and know, that’s who I come from. That’s a powerful thing for both the adoptee and the birth mom.

Connie Going: It is. What I hope in today’s time that adoptive families and birth moms understand that you can give your child everything, that too much love is never enough love.

Kim Noeth: Absolutely. You could be the best parent in the world-

Connie Going: [crosstalk 00:23:30]

Kim Noeth: … but there’s still that need.

Connie Going: Yep, and that it’s a part of completeness.

Kim Noeth: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It is. The ones that can really understand can actually really aid in the whole reunion process. For my son and I, I remember one of the things that I wanted to do, the second most important thing, was I really wanted to thank the parents that had raised him. I had waited years to hug them and just say, “Thank you so much for doing the job that I was not able to do at the time.”

We had arranged a reunion. Unfortunately, that reunion didn’t quite go as I had hoped. There’s a lot of fear, a lot of fear on the side of the adoptive mother, of why am I here? What am I after? A lot of making sure that I was aware of who really raised him and who really was his mother, and I remember being able to understand that. Even though that was hurtful, I remember being able to sit there and understand the fear, so it didn’t diminish my love for them. I just was able to put that aside and recognize it for what it was, and still be happy that, if nothing else, I was able to say thank you. I was able to look in her eyes and thank her for doing that job. I’d like to hope that one day, the relationship will extend, but I think there is maybe some reasons why not. I remember one thing that I didn’t mention before was that that letter that I had mentioned that my son had had … They never actually gave him that letter.

Connie Going: Wow.

Kim Noeth: That letter had stayed hidden and he had found it and photocopied it, and placed it back. So, in a way, that letter that is a beautiful thing for me is probably also a source of contention for her in the sense that I don’t know how she feels about that. So, that part there … Again, I understand it. I understand the fear behind it. I understand the whole process, but that helps me today as I reach out to other parents to say, “They just want to see. They just want to know. It’s not that they want to take back.” The less fear involved, the better, because it’s the healthiest for the child because now my son has to always feel guilty when he sees me, and things like that, that shouldn’t have to be when there’s adults involved in the situation.

Connie Going: Exactly, and in all my years of social work, both domestic and dependency, foster-care adoption work where a child was actually removed from a birth family and ends up being adopted, I have yet to see an adoptive family come back and take a child, or really attempt … A lot of times, what I’ve experienced and in my own sons, who are both adopted as older children, I helped them find their birth parents. They were more concerned with upsetting their lives, and as my son’s birth father would say, “I don’t want to mess him up any more,” and I had to really encourage him and I still do, to at least go through Facebook and support what he’s doing because the not knowing is what makes it so hard.

Kim Noeth: Absolutely. Once you know, you can accept it and deal with it, as it is, but when you don’t know, you’re always left wondering.

Connie Going: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. I agree. So, when I see a birth mom and an adoptive family that really understands what this is about and the strength that a birth mom has to make these decisions, the adoptive family to face their fears of … ‘Cause birth moms are not scary people. They’re amazing, I think the most amazing people on Earth because they do something that very few women are able to do. I can’t imagine a more incredible human being. I really can’t.

Kim, you still there?

Kim Noeth: Yes. Yes, sorry.

Connie Going: That’s okay.

Kim Noeth: The line got cut a minute.

Connie Going: I want to know, moving forward … You’ve turned your experiences, which again is so admirable, into your life vocation and to what you do passionately every day. So, tell us a little bit because you are the founder of Birth Moms Today and you’re a birth mom advocate. Tell us what that entails.

Kim Noeth: Sure. I remember when I first started being interested in coaching, life coaching, particularly, someone had said to me, “You know, you’re so passionate about adoption. Why don’t you lean more toward that field in your coaching?”

That’s when I started to really study more about that, and I was very surprised as I found out how many similarities there are with birth mothers, and how many birth mothers are afraid to come forward with their stories. I could remember when I first shared my experience in a church that we went to how many older people came up to me and said, “Thank you so much. Nobody knows, but I had a child when I was younger, and just hearing your story, it means so much to me.”

That was the first time I realized how many older people from the older generations really were afraid to come forward. Around this time, I began coaching people. It was mostly post-adoption situations where somebody had already placed their baby, and then I started a support group. It was through that support group that I started to meet people and see that, as much as a lot of things have changed today, a lot of things haven’t. The need for support is still, if not more, vital, very vital.

That’s a little bit about how I got started in birth mom life coaching. Today, I have three goals, and that’s really to provide support for the birth mom who has placed, to educate the adoptive families on the importance of keeping their post-adoption agreements and just how much that means to a birth mom, and then to be sure that the woman that is pregnant today and that is choosing adoption fully understands her decision so that, years down the line, there isn’t the same type of emotional breakdown that happens when you go into it without the knowledge and the denial.

Connie Going: I agree.

Kim Noeth: Today, if you know, my son and I, we get together. He’s understanding of the ministry that I’m involved in. He’s a big supporter of that. There’s many times when he gets involved and wants to know what’s happening. Very interested in reunited families, so I hope that one day in the future, that might be a real possibility for him, and to be able to be part of it in that way I think would be so great.

Connie Going: I agree. I think the more that people see, the more that they hear, it just can’t be enough because I think overcoming the history … I mean, really, understanding the best way to do something for you and knowing that you have choices, is something that … Your son is how old, now?

Kim Noeth: 27.

Connie Going: So, 27 years ago, things were done very differently. I would guess … I mean, I did domestic adoption in the … I must be a little older than you. I’d say the late ’80s, early ’90s. I totally remember these experiences as a social worker, and working with an agency, trying to get them to really empower that birth mother. It was sort of a new concept, and even the way that things were done and in the practice of adoption, there were attorneys out there still, and agencies, that were like, “We’ll pick your family. We’ll make the decisions.”

Kim Noeth: Exactly.

Connie Going: I thought, “Oh, this can’t be. This just can’t be.”

It hasn’t been that long ago, really. So, the more that people hear, the more that they listen, the more that they get involved, the healthier our children and our birth moms and our adoptive families are, that you really can have it all.

Kim Noeth: Exactly, and I hear great stories like this every day. As I interview adoptive couples, it’s for the goal that the birth mom will have more of a knowledge of them, so that when she comes to me and she’s looking for a particular family, it’s not that I just know of one that I see a picture of, but I actually talk to that family and got to know them and got to hear how they feel about adoption and the birth mom, and that’s a really exciting opportunity.

I’ve heard so many great stories from adoptive couples that have adopted the first time, and they have such a good relationship with their birth mom today, that they look forward to adopting again. Of course, I’ve heard the stories where they’ve had bad situations, but people are people and you’re going to have those situations in any experience, but the majority of them all share … It’s the ones that are very open. They don’t let their ego get in the way. They’re just open to understanding that this really is about the child because it is. The child is the one that has no say in this whole experience that has become his whole life. Here, it’s the parents who really get that, and who really want to allow this child to unfold to be who he or she is meant to be. They make some of the great parents, and most of the time, it’s that they were adopted themselves. I always love when there’s a couple who has been adopted themselves as a child now wants to adopt because they really have an insight, different than others.

Connie Going: Absolutely. I think that as we look at generational adoptions, what we see is that once adoption touches your life, it forever changes.

Kim Noeth: Absolutely.

Connie Going: As you grow as a family in your own life, you make decisions, but it’s such a unique and special experience that I think, honestly, it just changes your life forever.

Kim Noeth: Absolutely. Could not agree more.

Connie Going: Kim, how would someone reach out to find you if they wanted to connect with Birth Moms Today and they wanted some coaching, some help?

Kim Noeth: Well, a lot of information is on my website, on Birth Moms Today. You’ll be able to find out about our online support groups and the different coaching series that we have there. Then, if anyone would like to speak by phone, they can call me at 717-517-2334.

Connie Going: That is wonderful. Kim, I just want to thank you so very much for opening and sharing your heart and your story. I sit here just in awe and so emotional because I really, really pray that people out there, families out there, birth moms out there, hear this message. So, thank you again for being here.

Kim Noeth: No, thank you, Connie, and it is. It’s so important and healing for the birth mom to share her story. I don’t know what it is about it, but every birth mom that comes into my support group online, they say the more that they’re able to talk about it in a safe environment, the more that they’re able to face every day life and heal from the immediate trauma because they’ll carry it forever, but how they live in the day-to-day life can be affected positively depending on the support they receive.

Connie Going: It is so true, and I really believe sharing their story … It heals. It heals.

Kim Noeth: Thank you, Connie. Thanks for having me today.

Connie Going: Well, thank you, and for those of you who are listening, we thank you. For those of you who will tune in later, thank you for archiving this and pulling it up. Anyone that wants to reach out to Adoption Associates, their number is 1-800-677-2367 or, and I hope everyone has a fantastic weekend and a happy Friday. Thanks!

Kim Noeth: Thanks, Connie. Bye-bye.

Connie Going: Bye-bye.